(“GS”) What does it really mean to be part of a group (not just with them)? How does one go about truly belonging? How do we lose a sense of belonging? And is there anything besides belonging that is lost in that situation?
(“FT”) To me, the “Field Trip” story is intentionally paralleled with “Speaking of Courage” in the two baptism scenes—with two different characters getting in the water (Bowker in the Iowa lake to watch the fireworks; O’Brien in the Vietnam lake to give Kiowa his moccasins). But! The implication is that one character is “saved” (O’Brien, who walks away, literally and metaphorically), and two (Kiowa [the Christian?], who literally drowns, and Bowker, who does so psychologically) are not saved. Why is that, do you think?
And finally, is Tim O’Brien a reliable narrator? Can you trust him? ☺
(one more thing-- extra bonus excitement points, which are like extra credit for the soul, for interacting with other people's with the "@" tag!)
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(GS) I think being part of a group means that you are at home there, and you know when you truely belong when you rely on them for help and they rely on you too. I think you can lose your sense of belonging from something as small as a disagreement and as big as being stabbed in the back by your "friends". I think you lose your trust when you lose your sense of belonging.
(FT)I think the metaphor of O'Brian being saved is representing his easy transition from war to peace, while Bowker "drowns" because he can not seem to get back to a normal life, he doesn't know where to go or how to get there. Kiowa actually died in Vietnam and he will never get back to normal. This is part of the reason Bowker has a hard time because i think it was bowker that let him sink under the sh*t feild as they called it.
Ashley:
(GS)I think being part of a group meas you feel like you belong and in a nonjudgmental zone (at least for myself.) You feel a sense of bein "owned" per say. To lose the sense of belonging I think one must become distant. Not only physically, but mentally as well. If you aren't present mentally you can't cooperate with others, join in the group and so forth. Besides simply belonging I also think knowing who you are and what you want out of the experience whatever it may be is a key component of wholly belonging and being present in the situation.
(FT) I got lost on this one a little... nonetheless, I think all three men represent three different things in the story. I'm not quite sure what they all are but I think it is implied that Kiowa drowned doing what he loved. Bowker shows the long lasting effects war can have on someone, and O'Brien is the typical person trying to move on with his life post war.
:):):)
(GS)To me, being part of a group is one being able to know that the care for those around them is mutual. I also believe there can be groups within a group, those who really care for one another and those who don't. One feeling that they truly belong results from the person being able to fully open up without being timid. They have the knowledge that they have people to confide in and no doubts that the people will turn away. We lose the sense of belonging when the feelings previously states are lost. If someone finds that those around them have found other things to occupy their time without them, they may begin to believe that their "group" has detached themselves. This tension leads to an even deeper tear in the relationships. Is anything else lost? Yes, a person can lose the confidence they once had in having people around them.
(FT)I believe this implication is related to the idea that O'Brien is the one that revisited the site of the war and the spot where he lost one of his friends. With Kiowa being dead, and Bowker only experiencing memories, O'Brien is the only one that goes back to the actual past. Maybe the second swim is a kind of cleasing by knowing that a place that was once bad is now clear of danger. Lastly, I do not believe that Tim O’Brien is a reliable narrator. In "Good Form" he tells that he has made up a story only to make us feel how he did. So why should we trust anything he said? Who's to say the whole thing is not just a made up "war story" to make a reader scared of war?
(GS) I think being a part of a group means that the other people in the group accept you for who you are and you accept them. You may also do things with the others in the group and trust them. To truly belong, you must be like the others in the group; you must do the things they do and act they way they act. To lose a sense of belonging, you must do something that the others in the group do not like, i.e. betraying them somehow or not doing the same things they are doing. In this situation, you might not just lose belonging, you might lose friendships and trust.
(FT) I guess O'Brien feels a sort of peace after he visits Vietnam again and puts Kiowa's moccasins in the water...it makes him feel better maybe. But, the other two will never really feel free from Vietnam. Kiowa drowned there, so he will always be a part of Nam. Bowker couldn't relate to his home and the people there once he was back.
I think maybe O'Brien is a reliable narrator...he seems to be for the most part. No matter if these stories are true or not, they are REALLY good and show a lot about war.
:)
I'm piss the thing erased my first comment!
GS: Being apart of a group is having people around who will have your back and people you can trust. It is like with a lot of sports teams you may not be friends off the field; however, when you take that field your teammates are you family, and if your family gets hurt you have to take up for your family and not let them get pushed around. However losing the inness of being in the group i like losing the connection such as if old teams come back who you may not have been friends with there is no real connection there because they aren't you team anymore.
FT: I agree with kevan about the metophor O'Brian is using to symbolize the being "saved" idea is that O'Brain is able to smoothly after the war; however, Bowker was not able to transition smoothy because he was not "saved". I think Kiowa drowed because he was a Christain meaning he was on the right path, and O'Brian was saved evenuatly because he found the right path eventualy. I know how O'Brian talks about the truth a lot and kind of slurs his truth in with facts and changes facts around to make them truths. So I don't think we should take everything he saids literal.
Katie Bridges
(GS) I think that being a part of a group means you share the same beliefs and ideas. In this situation, they are all fighting and trying to stay alive. Being part of a group also means to be accepted and for you to be accepted by them. We may lose our trust and belonging when we betray the group or someone else in the group.
(FT)I agree with Morgan on this one. I think he feels free of what happened there after returning and leaving Kiowa's moccasins where he last had them on. I also think that O'Brien is a reliable narrator. Some of the stories may be made up but at the same time, we really don't know all the stories that happened in the war. Some of his stories may simply represent the other horrible situations that were faced in the war.
Let's try take three of this ha...
(GS) I would say being part of a group is deeper than just being accepted or being at home with the people in said group. Really being part of a group is to be on a level with them that you don't have with anyone else. An understanding of the same beliefs and thoughts that brings you together and then the similarity in hobbies or activities that makes the bond stronger. Such as a really close team or theatre group, or well any organization that you feel a "second family" type thing with.
This sense of belonging can be lost, I'd say, with an extension of what Ashley said. How the person becomes distant. I'd say by not agreeing or believing actively in what the group is saying or doing, by by simply being physically distant, doing different activities away from the group.
Yeah I'd say they lose confidence in themselves in their place and beliefs. They question themselves because their friends aren't on the same page as they are.
(FT) I have a question about this one. Who is O'Brien's daughter talking about in the end when she says "That old man. Is he mad at you or something?
And while I believe sure O'Brien is saved, it takes him all that time(the 20 years) to get to that. He has to go back to that place and give the moccasins. So in reality, maybe the others have it better off because they aren't exactly having to think about it like O'Brien does.
He also had a different transition from war to civilization to make it easier. He didn't go straight back to society, he was removed from the group; placed in a routine before leaving completely you know. So he didn't have it as bad as Bowker I would say.
I almost want to go with what Michael said about the last topic. He DID say he made it up, but then again that's what fiction is right? I could probably see it either way. A lot of fiction is based off of a little truth so he could be reliable. But as far as trusting, nah probably not. Just because he said he made it up.
(GS)Being part of a group to me means that you can have fun and be serious and rely on them all in one. A group does not have to be a large one. It could be two people. You know you truly belong when you can get past the rough patches in life and the "good times" as well. You lose hope for not fitting in sometimes and I think it tears a person down when they do not belong in a group.
(FT)Along with Ashley I got somewhat lost in this chapter. They all coped from war in each different way. The way they were "saved" dominos from from what they went through together. With Kiowa being dead and Bowker being the one who got him in the "sh!t field," they will never be back to normal. The only one who tried was O'Brien by going back to visit the "spot."
& O'Brien is not a reliable narrator. I never ever know what is true and what's not.
But Amanda, think about your favorite fiction book, everything that author told you was a lie, minus the little truth they may or may not throw in there. But you relied on them to give you a good story did you not?
(GS)Being a part of a group (and ACTUALLY belonging) means feeling comfortable with yourself and sharing a sense of mutual understanding and trust. It's like having a family, outside of your family. When you're close enough to each other where many things can go unspoken, but each group member still just knows what is going on. We lose belonging when we lose that "comfort zone/security blanket" feeling around the group. People just lose touch with one another in group situations, that's just life.
(FT)I think part of his intention of including all three of these stories is to remind us the three scenarios that end the stories of most soldiers who went to Vietnam, which are also (metaphorically) the three ways we can end our own stories. Either you "save" yourself and walk away from the parts of your past that haunt you, you're just lost and never recover, or you die before getting to make the choice.
Had a whole post typed up and it erased it!
GS
Being part of a group means that you rely on, support, encourage, and trust your other group members. In a regular situation, this means that you accept these people for who they are. Most of the time, there is some connection in a group whatever it may be. Most groups are connected by the present (such as the men in TTTC) or by the past. The men in TTTC are in a group because of their situation in Vietnam. They have been in the jungle together for so long, and because they are in a war, they have learned to rely on and trust each other. They have also learned how to accept each other. For this reason, they are in a group.
I think you begin belonging in a group whenever you begin to submit to your groups ideology, way of thinking, opinions, and actions. But also, you begin interjecting your own. I did not put that necessarily in the best words, but an example would be that your group of friends decides to do something that you do not necessarily agree with. You feel so connected to this group though, that you let them know you disagree, but you are going to support them and help them in anyway that you can. This submission to other people is what I think makes you belong. The troops begin to submit to the others in their group. They of course had to submit to the orders of Cross, but they also submitted to the thoughts and actions of the others in their group.
FT
OBrien was able to walk away both physically and metaphorically because he had closure. He was able to go back to the spot where Kiowa was killed, bury his moccasins and say goodbye. Bowker had to live with the images in his head. He had the chance to save Kiowa but did not take it. He is haunted by this. He wades into the water to watch the fireworks because of the feel of being submerged again, but he never walks away like Obrien does. He feels too haunted, because he does not have closure.
Finally, like his daughter, I think OBrien is borderline crazy and weird at times. He says things that are entirely contradictory but yet presents them both as true. Reminds me of double think in 1984. First he says that everything is true, but then that nothing is true. Then he describes how he killed that man, then he says he did not kill him. In the end, I think everything he says holds meaning though. It does not necessarily matter if what he is saying is true or false. It holds significance, and it holds meaning, for this reason, the fact of whether it is real or fake is irrelevant. Only the fact that it is significant matters.
(GS) Belonging to a group, in a "normal" sense, is having some common ground with other people that brings you all together. Truly belonging comes after spending a lot of time with these people, getting to know them, understanding who they are, and knowing that they understand who you are. You belong to a group when you would be willing to help them out and not hope for anything in return, and they would do the same for you. Losing this sense of belonging can come from simply not spending as much time with these people, or from finding other groups and losing touch. I think this relates a lot to us and leaving for college, because we are all going to be getting into new groups and belonging elsewhere, when we are used to being all together. Along with losing a sense of belonging, you could lose a support base of people you used to know you could go too for help.
(FT) Agreeing with Kevan and Elizabeth... a symbol of O'Brian going home and having a family and living as close to a normal life as a Vietnam foot soilder can. I think Kiowa drowning in the shit field could have been a metaphor to how O'Brian personally feels about Christianity, I don't know his religious beliefs, so just kinda what I was thinking.
O'Brian being a reliable narrator... goes back to your definition of "truth" and what a reliable narrator is. If you are looking for facts and everything has to have literally happened for him to be reliable, then no, he clearly isn't, because who knows what ACTUALLY happened. But his point is that that isn't what's important, and he IS reliable on keeping to that point.
GS:
Being a part of a group is feeling like you belong; saying things with certainty and without fear of being judged; not being afraid to invite yourself to "exclusive" events; knowing that no matter what, you will always have your group to turn to. We are typically "grouped" by common interests and/or convenience. Truly belonging is a part of the psyche in my opinion. Generally, no one is purposely looking to exclude people, and if a person feels neglected and less focused on, they are more apt to say they don't belong. Having a true feeling of belonging is a lot of times in the head.
Also, a key part of a group is feeling, NO KNOWING that no matter what you are going to be accepted. Know matter how "wonderful" our society is today, there are tons and tons of barriers that interfere with the formation of friendships. This point kind of ties into the whole convenience comment made earlier in the post. I feel that groups are formed secondarily behind wrong motives. Neglecting hanging out with someone you love to for someone who it is easier to. Easier because of what society/parents accept.
FT:
@CAM: I couldn't agree with you more in your explanation of why it seems that O'Brien is saved and Kiowa and Bowker are not. As you mentioned, I believe that Bowker is subconsciously guilty for not saving Kiowa when given the perfect opportunity. O'Brien on the other hand can walk away with no regret, with closure and a sense of being saved.
Can I trust O'Brien?..Toughy. It's hard to say whether or not I can trust the man, but one thing is for sure, I certainly acknowledge and respect all of what he accounts. It is hard to decipher what it true and what is false in his accounts, but like so many of my peers mentioned..does this really matter? Do I place firm and unwavering confidence in O'Brien? I can't say that I do not, but I don't guess that that means I can. The bigger part of the question to me is if he can be relied on, and to that I definitely think that he can be. No matter what comes out of his accounts, falsities or truths, he rarely says things without intent. Intent to bring out emotion in the readers--help us to realize the atrocities behind War.
SN: I really like the idea behind these blogs; for me especially, it is easier to express ideas through writing rather than speaking. Words get twisted and thoughts blurred when trying to elaborate in class. This "blogging" gives us a chance to think about and critique what we are going to say before it is said, if that makes sense. We can erase things that weren't meant to be expressed the way they were said, whereas in person once it comes out, it is out. A lot less looking and sounding like an idiot...(cough cough, Michael :) hahaa)
(GS) I believe a group is people that share a tight bond with one another. When one feels like that they belong in a group they have to have things in common and get a long with one another. You can lose your sense of belonging when you lose trust in someone or everyone in your group. Trust in that case would be lost as well.
(FT)I believe that he brings the moccasins back as closure, he was close to Kiowa and wanted to have that sense that everything was okay.I also believe that he is as reliable as they come from war. Some of his stories may be exaggerated but he was there and he saw these things. No one will be able to describe actual war unless they experience it.
I think being apart of a group means that you have a special bond with whoever it is in it. It is putting aside all of your difference and learning to work with one another and have respect. I think that truly belonging is something that can not really be described. It is just something that sort of happens. I think it is a lot easier to lose that sense of belonging than gain it. It is easy to feel as if we do not belong and the smallest things can change that. A lot of things can be lost whenever you lose that sense of belonging because you have a different attitude as a whole.
Yeah.. this one confused me. Buuuuut,I think it shows who O'Brien is whenever he goes back to visit. Maybe it sort of puts him at peace with the past.
Yes and No. This is a tough one. I really think it can go both ways..
ok i put a long post and nothing showed up. mr thomasson if you read this ill retype it tonight.
(GS) I feel like being part of a group means that you are accepted and feel welcome with a certain group of people. You know you can relate to these people and share a mutual caring of each other. I think you can lose your sense of beloning if you are away from the group or become connected to another group. I believe that there are other such such as belonging that are lost in the situation such as the loss of companions and the feeling of always having people there for you.
(FT) I believe that O'Brien is definitely the one that is saved because he went back to the place of Kiowa's death and have a peaceful reminiscing of him and come to terms with the fact that he was dead. Bowker on the other hand has an everlasting guilt of the incident with Kiowa. He is not saved by entering the lake he is trying to come to terms with something he will never be able to overcome.
... I personally really like O'Brien as a person and trust him as a narrator. I really do believe the stories he tells and think that he is being very real with them. I think he is just too deep and detailed to be making it all up.
[GS]* I think being part of a group means that you feel like you belong and its when you have others to support you; you can have them to rely on. "having your back" :) yeah, there may be some disagreemnts, thats expected ! because everyone may not think the same way or agree on certain things, but they can ressolve that(hopefully). Once one starts slipping for ex. lying, or getting things worked up within the group, i think you'll lose your sense of belonging !!!! #believethat!
[FT]* Hxll, i dont know ! I got lost on this part. Each soldier represented three different stories. With Kiowa being dead, Bower felt as if it was his fault that Kiowa died. while bower "drowns", its because he feels as if his life will NEVER be normal again. & O'Brien is trying to move on from the war and seems to be letting things be. ( :
(GS)To be a part of a group means that you are comfortable with the people you are around and you have a mutual consensus for having each others back. This can be on a sports field, in a class room, or in a mob. The scenery does not matter what matters is that you can be who you are without having to put up walls. I do not think you have to do anything to truly belong. I feel that if you have to try to fit a mold or to fit in your not being true to yourself and you do not need to be with those people. You can lose a sense of belonging very easily but for the most part people just lose their sense of security which causes them to act different and people do not like when you change on them. I do not think you can lose your closeness to someone if you were truly close to them and i do not mean on a superficial level. Once you have made a significant tie with someone it is hard to forget what you had together.
(FT) I really do not know much about these two scenes for some reason i skimmed over the first baptism and didn't make any connections to the second one but i will go back and read and make an attempt to answer the question now. Maybe one was saved because of what he believed. If we are talking Christianity then it is not the fact that someone is baptized it is what the person believes that saves him. I think it goes back to the fact that O'Brien had a way to wade through his thoughts and sort them out through literature and ground himself in the fact he is not the same as before the war but it will be okay. Bower has no way to express to others what he is feeling of thinking and is consumed by himself which ironically will also be the death of you in Christianity. He is always thinking of the horrors of the war when the war is over and does not matter anymore.
I think you can trust O'Brien to help you feel what the war is like for someone who was in it. While the story might not always be factual that is not the point the point is how real it is to the reader and the way it is portrayed is real to me.
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